Reroof or Repair? - PODCAST TRANSCRIPT

Editor's note: The following is the transcript of a live interview with Stan Robinson of Pacific West Roofing. You can read the interview below, listen to the podcast or watch the recording.

Megan Ellsworth: Welcome to the Ask a Roofer podcast, where all your roofing questions find their answers. Your hosts, Megan Ellsworth and Lauren White, peel back the layers of the roofing world to reveal the knowledge, tips and FAQs you've been curious about. From shingles to skylights, metal to asphalt, we are here to demystify the system above your head. So get ready to ask, learn and explore the fascinating world of roofing, one question at a time, on the Ask a Roofer podcast. Hello everyone, my name is Megan Ellsworth.

Lauren White: And I'm Lauren White.

Megan Ellsworth: And this is the Ask a Roofer podcast. Welcome back. We are so excited to be chatting with Stan Robinson today and talking about re-roof or repair. What should you do and how do you know what you should do? Hi, Stan, how are you?

Stan Robinson: I'm great, thank you.

Megan Ellsworth: So glad to have you on the pod today.

Stan Robinson: I appreciate being on.

Megan Ellsworth: Yay. So why don't we just dive right in, have you introduce yourself and Pacific West Roofing?

Stan Robinson: All right. Well, my business partner, Brian, and I started Pacific West Roofing in 1980, long before cell phones and everything else. And over the last 43 years, I've grown it to 30 some odd employees. We've moved our office right before COVID down to Hubbard from Tigard or from Tualatin, moving from about a 500 square foot warehouse to an 8,000 square-foot warehouse. We continue to grow and we're residential and commercial on both sides of repair and replacement. So we do it all.

Lauren White: Excellent. And so for our listeners out there who might not know the difference, can you tell us what that difference is between a roof repair and a roof replacement?

Stan Robinson: Sure. Roof repair is trying to breathe life into a halfway dead roof by doing repair work, replacing pipe flashings, reflashing, skylights, chimneys, sometimes replacing valley metal. Any penetration that comes to the roof is usually the vulnerable spot. Replacement obviously is where you remove everything down to the roof deck and starting over with all full replacement, all new parts. And that means not replace, reusing any of the existing pieces where a lot of contractors will try to reuse a pipe flashing for $10. I'm like, my gosh, people. So yeah, you replace it all. So repair is individual pieces and replacement is everything.

Megan Ellsworth: Got it. So this might be a little redundant, but what leads to a roof needing to be repaired or replaced? When do you get the call that someone needs a new roof?

Stan Robinson: Well, that's not redundant and I think really what happens is that about year 12 to year 15, we start getting individual problems such as the number one culprit is neoprene pipe flashings, failing around the pipes and creating leaks. And they didn't know it until somebody went up to clean the gutters and went, "Oh my god, the pipe flashings are all gone." Usually it's that or it's improperly flashed skylights and chimneys. Those are probably the three most obvious and most... Especially the skylights and chimneys because water takes a straight shot into the bathroom or the master bedroom and it's off to the races to try to find somebody to come fix. So it's whatever telegraphs through first. So obviously if you have a leak in the garage, and it can wait a little bit, you got a leak over the master bedroom right over the bed, you want somebody there in five minutes. So just depends on the urgency.

Lauren White: And how often should homeowners have their roofs inspected to catch potential issues like you just mentioned?

Stan Robinson: Great question. I think honestly people should start looking at it every other year starting at 10 years and then at 12 and at 14, and when you get to 16, you do it every year and just check... And what I would suggest September, you call us in, we go, we do a full roof inspection, double-check everything, make sure we do, it's called a roof tune-up and we button down anything that's got potential issues, especially again the skylights, the pipe flashings, the chimneys, things like that.

Megan Ellsworth: So what's the cost difference between repairing a roof and completely replacing it? I imagine it's pretty big difference.

Stan Robinson: Between $1 and $1 million.

Megan Ellsworth: Right.

Stan Robinson: Here's the deal. I was at home yesterday on Sunday working, because I have a massive job due today, to bid, which came in at $240,000. And that's new construction. A typical replacement roof, typical, is going to be between... And now this is not national average. This is Pacific West Roofing average. We range anywhere from about 30 to $40,000. And that's a common; remove the existing replace the existing and typically that involves about half to almost all of the plywood because of improper ventilation, which we could go on and on about. We're ventilation experts and we talk about mold and we talk about organic growth. And proper ventilation is super, super important. So a typical roof 30 to 40, I think on a national average, people would say 20 to 24. But our clientele, we have usually a little bit bigger houses.

Lauren White: And in your experience, are there certain materials that are more cost-effective or durable in the long run for that home or building owner?

Stan Robinson: So for us at Pacific West, we promote SBS-modified rubber shingles because we feel that they hold the granules longer and the granules are what keep the UV from breaking the asphalt down. So if you've got your granules that stay on the shingles, live on the shingles longer, your roof is going to live longer in your house. So without granules you're going to lose your roof. So SBS-modified rubber, Malarkey makes... All their shingles are SBS-modified rubber. In fact, I'm bidding on one right now. And then also Certainty does make one and some of the other manufacturers are starting to come around and make them. Owens Corning has just come out with a new one. I know that Malarkey or Certainty is also keying up to do some new... Some of their existing shingles are going to change to SBS-modified. And there are... You get to class three and class four hail impact resistance.

So branches do less damage, they're a little bit stronger. We don't have hail really in the northwest in the size of golf balls like you get in Colorado. But just a stronger shingle, all of the... I think all the manufacturers now have an SBS-modified adhesive strip that seals the shingles down to one another. They're impossible to get off, but there's a reason for that. We want high wind resistance. And so they've all come around to doing that, which is great. It's a great way to do it. Unfortunately, it makes it super difficult to repair, because they're so grippy.

Megan Ellsworth: How do you feel about the Malarkey smog-eating granules?

Stan Robinson: I love it. I don't care if people think it's a gimmick. I think if it's true and you got the additional equal of two maple trees in your yard, I think it's great. And I love the 3M people because they sponsor our golf tournament every year. And they fly out from St. Paul, Minnesota, and I just appreciate them. And I think it's great technology and I think other manufacturers should come on board. Honestly.

Megan Ellsworth: I totally agree. I think that's just the coolest thing. And every time I get to see them at the trade shows, I just, wow,

Stan Robinson: That technology has been around since the sixties. It came out of Japan, I believe. And that technology has been around a long time. But thanks to past president of Malarkey, he pushed for that and got that to be a thing. And now it's a big deal.

Megan Ellsworth: Okay. How does the lifespan of a repaired roof compare to that of a reroofed one?

Stan Robinson: Yeah, it's tough on that because if we just replace a flashing on a skylight, that leaves 98% of the rest of the roof to be vulnerable. So we replace a chimney flashing. Okay, well that leaves 98% of the rest of the roof. It's like it's hurting cats. You're going to fix one, chase over and fix the other one, chase over here and fix the other one. What I do is I like to go up and evaluate, and when I start seeing the repairs getting to be 20, 30% of the cost of a new roof, I tell the customer, "You guys don't waste your money on the repairs. Just budget. And I mean, we can stop some leaks with some kind of sealant or some flashing right now, but just plan on getting the roof redone." Sometimes I have to tell them, "You need a roof in the next month," and it's not...

I could read you our purpose statement, but it is basically we give people the bold truth about what to expect and what they need. If they don't hear the truth from me, then shame on me, but somebody else is going to tell them or they're going to lie to them. I hope not. But the goal is you tell people the truth, you give them the honest truth, end of story and let them make an educated decision based on the information you give them. It's been our motto and we stick to it.

Lauren White: We've kind of touched on this a little bit, but what are some of the most common roofing repairs that homeowners need? And maybe we can touch a little bit more on the ventilation aspect of it.

Stan Robinson: Right. So I'll tell you this. One of the biggest mistakes we see out there is when the first roof is done, the second roofer comes in and he bids, and he does the roof and say, "We've got two layers on the same original plywood." When you get to that time to tear off that second roof. Now I'm not talking about one over the other, I'm talking about the first roof was removed, they put a second roof on, but it's on plywood. That second roof needs to now come off and new shingles. I can guarantee you that the plywood is all going to need to be replaced because it has two things going on. It has organic growth going on, because they probably most likely didn't vent it properly. And number two is it has what thermal cycling, we call heat exhaustion. Heat exhaustion and plywood turns into plywood with no glue.

All the glue turns to powder and it just delaminates. So you can tell when your roof is super bouncy. It's not crunchy, but it's bouncy. That's a delamination. When it gets crunchy, that's organic growth and that's when it's really shot. So we end up after the second roof going into the third cycle of a roof. We end up telling people, "Look, plan on replacing all of the plywood because it's not going to live through another third set of 20 years." It just isn't going to make it. So we just tell people up front, they're going to spend an extra six or $7,000. And that's probably the first thing. On the ventilation side, that's probably the first thing that's going to show up to be a problem.

Other than that, the other ones are the typical things like we talked about, pipe flashings, skylight flashings, chimney flashings. Lack of ventilation is so common and man, I'm telling you, if I could just drill it into other contractors heads, that's the number one. It's about attic health more than anything else.

Megan Ellsworth: Absolutely. So really quick, if a homeowner notices their attic is super hot in the summer and super cold in the winter and there's no in-between and they don't know how to keep it at a regular temperature, is that when maybe they have failed ventilation? No ventilation or-

Stan Robinson: Or both? Or what may be happening, if it's cold in the winter and hot in the summer, it sounds to me like lack of ventilation and lack of insulation. So I would say have an insulating contractor go in and evaluate what's going on with the attic insulation, because that tends to be... If it gets hot easily inside, that means heat's radiating down into the living space, because the heat can't get out fast enough. So it's radiating down. That insulation should be a buffer for that. And then vice versa in the winter, it should be keeping your heat in the house and letting that air move underneath the plywood in the winter months too. So air moving 24/7 is the key.

Megan Ellsworth: Yep. So maybe there's been a storm or in Colorado a big hail situation. What immediate steps should a homeowner take if they have sudden roof damage from a storm?

Stan Robinson: Well, immediately call your insurance company and put them on notice.

And I would do that on a phone call backed up with an email so that you have it in writing. And then I would find the closest nearest roofing contractor, your best friend, your newest, best friend, because when you're in a situation where you've got 50, 60 impacts and you got 50 or 60 leaks or we had last January, February, we had an ice storm here in Portland on the backside of Portland. In the Beaverton Hills, we had hundreds and hundreds of houses that were just crushed by giant fir trees, 160-foot dug first right through the house down to the floor and we were tarping the trees into the house because the tree guys couldn't get there fast enough. So all we were doing...

I ran out the night before and bought every tarp Home Depot had, because I saw it coming and I knew if you first come first serve. And by noon that day they were out of tarps. So we tarped about 30 or 40 houses over the next week or two and then came back. And so it really kicked our year off early. That's why I say develop a relationship with a roofing contractor. You never know when he's your next best friend.

Lauren White: So what are some of the risks? We're talking about finding a contractor, but some people might be interested in maybe trying to DIY their roofing project, or tarp the roof themselves. Can you tell us what are some of the risks associated with people doing DIY roofing projects?

Stan Robinson: Let's start with falling off the roof.

Lauren White: It's a great start.

Stan Robinson: Okay, do you have time to be hospitalized? Do you have time to be paralyzed? That's the first thing I'm going to say. Number two is, are you insured to do that? I mean, just think about it. The risks are high. We just had a call not an hour ago where this young gentleman, I will say, kid, because you're all kids to me, was calling in because he said, "My dad... I wanted to do the roof myself, because I thought I could watch enough videos on YouTube. I could do it myself." He said, my dad said, "Absolutely not. There are things to take shortcuts on. A roof is not one of them." And he said, "But my dad specified that it had to have ring shank nails." I said, "That's fine. Can have ring shank nails, but we're happy to do the roof for you." Because I'm telling you, the worst thing anybody can do is try to do work themselves.

It is not just nailing on shingles. You got to know where to put the nails, where not to put the nails. And that is critical in valleys and in low slope. You got to know when to use a peel & stick membrane, and when you don't have to use a peel & stick membrane on a low slope. You got to know where to put the ventilation. You got to have a balanced ventilation system. Pipe flashings are a little less important, but still just as important because if you use the neoprene ones, they last about eight to 10 years and fail. So you either use the silicone ones or you use the lead ones. This is where people just make the wrong choices, or they'll buy the most expensive roof shingles and then they'll use no valley metal. They'll use the cheapest pipe flashings. I always call it... It's like buying a Ferrari and putting bicycle tires on it. What's the point? You want 100% premium performance on every item on the roof, not just the shingles. It's ventilation. Every component is hugely important. We don't take shortcuts.

Lauren White: Yeah, there's so many parts to the system that people don't realize.

Stan Robinson: Absolutely. And how to integrate them. It's critical. Step flashing on the sidewalls and they put the flashing outside the underlayment rather than behind the underlayment. You see that all the time. Or short, or they're not tall enough, all kinds of stuff. Oh, we just got a phone call half an hour ago. This gentleman would like us to come over and look at the roof because the guy's three-quarters of the way done and he's completely done it wrong. And so that's a licensed roofing contractor.

So now we've got to go over and inspect this guy's work while he's standing there watching us inspect his work. And this is not the first time we just had one a year ago. Same deal. I had to go over there and tell him what he had to fix and what he had to change. I mean, we have a roof deck here for training that we are going to be using here in the future. We just built it. It's 16 feet long by eight foot runs with the valleys in it and skylights and vents and everything else that we can teach on. So we're just literally going to start a school out of here, I swear to God. Because we see so many of these roofing contractors who think they know what they're doing and they have no clue.

Megan Ellsworth: That's wild. That also is something to say about doing your research on the contractor you hire before you hire them.

Stan Robinson: Right? Find out if they have accounts at a supply house. Find out if they're certified with any of the manufacturers. Make sure they pay their bills on time with those suppliers. How long have they been certified? What does their Google rating look like? What's their website look like? Do you have to qualify them? Do they have references?

Megan Ellsworth: Kind of going off all of this, are there any preventative measures homeowners can take to minimize the need for future repairs or replacements?

Stan Robinson: One would be to treat your roof with a zinc type of product that will keep the moss from growing, and the algae. Up here in the northwest, we have a lot of moss. East of mount hood over in the bend and in east of that, we don't get as much moss, but in this valley from Seattle to San Francisco, it's full of moss. So we go in and we wire brush clean roofs from moss and then we treat it with... I'll just say it kills moss and it stunts its growth. Zinc sulfate. And we do that for a lot of... We've probably got a couple hundred customers we do that twice a year. And so once you clean it, if you keep up on the treatment, you don't ever have to clean it again.

It's kind of like putting chlorine in your pool. You keep your pool chlorinated, you're not going to get algae growing in it. So yeah, highly important. That's the biggest thing they can do right now is to maintain that. And then to have those inspections every other year, every year, depending on what year, how old it is.

Lauren White: And are there any other things or steps homeowners should take that we haven't touched on yet? Maybe once a repair or replacement is done to maintain the roof's condition and keep it in that tip-top shape?

Stan Robinson: Mainly just keeping the moths from growing. And then keeping their gutters clear. We see a lot of times when people just let that stuff grow. I've got one area of my house where that gutter can fill up in literally two windstorms and the gutters are chuck full. So I run around my backpack blower and I blow them out, keep them clear because if water backs up, it's going to back up behind the fascia board into my soffits or behind the fascia board up onto the sheeting. If I don't have drip flashing, it's going to get the plywood wet and it's going to rot out. So just keeping water flowing and moving, which is moss prevention and gutter cleanse. Those are probably the two most important things for homeowners. Other than that, it's all professional work and they should let a professional do it.

Megan Ellsworth: And if there are any renters out there from personal experience, the gutters on my garage I rent were filled with five inches of just mud and the water was going into my garage. So I just went out there and I put my gloves on and I cleared it all out and now they're pristine. So even if you're renting, you got to clean those gutters.

Stan Robinson: Sometimes you have to clear the downspout. So you literally have to take the downspout off the house, turn it upside down, knock it until all the debris goes back out and then you got to reattach it to the house. We've done that. We do that. We've got guys who have done three-story roofs that way. Three-story buildings. Yeah, it isn't easy, but man, you got to do it. But the other thing too, that people can do on their gutters is at knee level, they can have what's called a screen. It's a gutter screen where you put the downspout through a screen before it goes into the pipe in the ground. Stop all that ground pipe from getting clogged with needles and debris. I've got them on every downspout on my house.

Megan Ellsworth: Well, Stan, thank you so much for chatting with us today. I learned a lot.

Stan Robinson: My pleasure. Sounds good.

Megan Ellsworth: And I hope everyone out there learned a lot. Everyone go check out Pacific West Roofing in the Portland area, if you are in need of a repair or a roof and a whole new one. Stan, thank you again. Any last words?

Stan Robinson: Well, just never get up there and stand back to admire your work because you might end up on the ground.

Megan Ellsworth: So true.

Stan Robinson: Sage advice.

Megan Ellsworth: Everyone be safe.

Stan Robinson: That's right.

Megan Ellsworth: Absolutely. Be safe out there. Well, thank you and we will be seeing everyone next time on the Ask a Roofer podcast. If your roof needs answers, subscribe now to the Ask a Roofer podcast. We've got your questions covered. One episode at a time. Go to askaroofer.com to submit your questions and learn more. Stay tuned and keep those questions coming.